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Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
Batkilt
Posts: 68
Joined: 10.06.08
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| Posted on 21-08-2008 16:52 |
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Okay, this might be a bit out of left field for a Batman forum so forgive me from the offset. I've been thinking about the different directors to have approached Batman in film over the course of the seven movies. Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher and Christopher Nolan, and it's raised a couple of questions in my head.
1) Who is the better director of the three?
2) Who is my favourite director of the three?
I don't mean from a strictly Batman film perspective, but that does come into it. I'd imagine that Burton and Nolan will be most people's answers for both questions, but not neccessarily for me. And I'm not just saying that. I think Joel Schumacher is a wonderful director. I realise that anyone who has seen Batman & Robin would need convincing of that, but I do mean it. I think he's better than Burton. Nolan? I'm not so sure as he's relatively inexperience compared to Schumacher and the films he's directed so far are all quite similar, so it's hard for me to judge that particular bout.
Schumacher for one thing isn't afraid to tackle subject matters that are different from his previous film, or just plain different. I know this could apply to Tim Burton but personally I find when watching a Tim Burton movie that it's being played out in his own strange universe, with the exceptions of Mars Attacks and Planet Of The Apes, with the latter being a film that isn't much better than Batman & Robin in my eyes. It's not a straight insult to Burton, but when I'm watching a Michael Mann film I can tell it's a Mann film due to the way it's shot, the photography, the scenery, all those details. Burton's have an offbeat feel to them which alienate me, as it feels like he's making the films for himself, rather than entertainment. Obviously that isn't the case as if it were he'd probably not be as popular as he is, but it's just not for me.
As for the subject matter itself? Falling Down. It's essentially a film about a guy that snaps, and spends the day walking home. And it's hot outside. There's the Schumacher trademark of a sweaty man, but the buildup of tension as the film moves along matches the deterioating mental state of the lead character. There's Phone Booth. It's one of the most tension fuelled films of the decade and the acting is top notch. And it's almost entirely one setting - a damn phone booth! I seriously can't think of many other directors who can play out the tension and suspense the way Schumacher can. 8MM is another example. I can't say the same for Bad Company, Phantom of The Opera or The Number 23, but they all seem to have turned a profit from box office and DVD sales.
Personally I'd put Nolan behind Schumacher due to his body of work being much smaller so far. I know it's the quality of a film that counts but Falling Down, The Client, A Time To Kill, 8MM, Flawless, Tigerland and Phone Booth are all quality films in my opinion, and a few of his films from the 80s/early 90s are decent popcorn flicks and cult classics.
So yeah, he's my answer to both questions. But I didn't solely create this thread just to try to convince even one person that Schumacher isn't all that bad, I'd genuinely like to know your answers and reasons. Honestly! |
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
The Red-Blue Blur
Posts: 547
Location: Burbank, CA
Joined: 02.06.08
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| Posted on 21-08-2008 17:57 |
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Nolan, who else.
"Things are always going to get worst before they get better."
[Alfred Pennyworth]
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
Razhwurz
Posts: 1672
Joined: 02.08.06
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| Posted on 21-08-2008 18:08 |
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I'll pick Nolan as my favorite director for one simple reason. He doesn't make bad movies... To say just because he has a smaller body of work means he doesn't qualify is just ignorant of the quality of his work. Insomnia, Memento, Begins, Prestige and TDK are all masterpieces.
while at this stage Schumacher was making cult films and Burton was making movies like Beetlejuice and Batman that were entertaining but no where near his potential; Nolan has consitantly made excelent films and no one has any idea how much better he can get. So I'd say he definitly gets the nod as the better director.
Never start with the head; the victim gets all fuzzy!
R.I.P. Heath |
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
real-dark-knight
Posts: 726
Location: The Shadow Of St Albans Abbey
Joined: 28.07.06
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| Posted on 21-08-2008 18:09 |
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Batkilt wrote:
Personally I'd put Nolan behind Schumacher due to his body of work being much smaller so far.
You may well be right about Schumacher's other work Batkilt, I'm not really a film buff and I've not seen any of the films you mentioned. But given the obvious, I'm with TMMWrites, 100%................
TMMWrites wrote:
Nolan, who else. |
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
matt the bat webb
Posts: 348
Location: lorain ohio!
Joined: 02.11.07
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| Posted on 21-08-2008 20:27 |
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I think Raz is right about nolan being the better director but my fav is burtton just because his movies are confusing and dont really make much sense unless you view em like 7 times whitch kinda makes you like the movie if ya didnt like it the first 4 times ya see it
the greatest victorys are won with your mind, then your body |
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
Batkilt
Posts: 68
Joined: 10.06.08
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| Posted on 22-08-2008 08:12 |
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TMMWrites wrote:
Nolan, who else.
Schumacher or Burton.
Razhwurz wrote:
I'll pick Nolan as my favorite director for one simple reason. He doesn't make bad movies... To say just because he has a smaller body of work means he doesn't qualify is just ignorant of the quality of his work. Insomnia, Memento, Begins, Prestige and TDK are all masterpieces.
But that's not really what I'm saying. I also said it was about film quality, and while I think Nolan's made good films I don't think he's yet realised his full potential. Insomnia is my favourite film of his, and I don't think it's a class apart from Falling Down or Phone Booth. Out of the two directors non-Batman films those three are easily the best to me and I see a lot of similarities between the two directors.
Edit: My point in my original post is poorly worded, I know.
while at this stage Schumacher was making cult films and Burton was making movies like Beetlejuice and Batman that were entertaining but no where near his potential; Nolan has consitantly made excelent films and no one has any idea how much better he can get. So I'd say he definitly gets the nod as the better director.
That is a very good point.
Edited by Batkilt on 22-08-2008 08:19 |
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
Matches Malone
Posts: 79
Location: Gotham
Joined: 10.05.08
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| Posted on 22-08-2008 11:17 |
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I didnt think there was a contest between the two. Yea, burtons a great director but not for batman. I love all his other movies but his batman movie. With Schumacher is quite obvious the pitfalls he maid in directing the movies. Nolans way of telling a story is far more great than most directors. The Prestiege was really good also.
The Dark Knight as we all well know is the best batman movie of all time so its really hard to go the other way. Although I would be interested in any one whos point of view is that Schumacher is the best.
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
Batkilt
Posts: 68
Joined: 10.06.08
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| Posted on 22-08-2008 11:41 |
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There's not a contest, as I said it was just a thought that entered my head. It really came about from watching 8MM again recently and I couldn't get my head around how that director churned out Batman & Robin.
Raz raised an interesting point about Nolan's experience at this point which I'd overlooked. I think Nolan has the potential to be one of the best director's out there. So perhaps who is the best director - not from a Batman franchise point of view, just in general - is far too subjective to pin down.
Schumacher remains my favourite though. As I said, I think he's great with building tension and with a little moral ambiguity when it's needed. Not a great action director and probably hasn't got the stomach in regards for locking heads with studios in big budget movies, but I still think he gets a bum rep. |
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
Phil
Posts: 2061
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 30.07.05
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| Posted on 22-08-2008 12:48 |
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nolan. i agree with razhwurz. he hasn't made a bad movie yet. i enjoyed all of them.
http://batmanytb.com/pictures/thumbnails.php?album=4 |
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
batboy99
Posts: 1550
Location: Toronto,Ontario Canada
Joined: 20.10.05
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| Posted on 22-08-2008 17:16 |
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To be honest, I like Nolan, i really do, but i find him overrated, and im not just saying this because of Batman. Ive seen insomnia, the prestige,memento, and of course TDK and BB, but people make him out to be this extreamly amazing director. No, none of his movies are bad(well actually, i didnt like the presitge at all, but i know many did), but I feel because of BB and TDK, he is now this amazing director. I dont doubt that he wouldnt be a successful director without the batman movies(which he basically was), but i think(at least the people I know) seem to think he's so amazing now because of BB and TDK. Now, im not trying to bash your opinions or Nolan, im just stating my POV.
Out of the three, Burton is my favorite.(Hell,hes my favorite either way). Sure maybe his movies dont make sense right away, but he has this unique visual and quality to his movies that i find outstanding. I can definetly sit through all of his movies without getting bored.(Sorry, cant say the same for Nolan, exept for TDK).
Batman YTB is the best site on the net!
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
Phil
Posts: 2061
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 30.07.05
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| Posted on 22-08-2008 23:22 |
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maybe you get bored with nolan's cuz you don't understand it fully. a lot of his movies are really deep. probably why downey didn't enjoy TDK as most people have.
are you a downey? lol.
http://batmanytb.com/pictures/thumbnails.php?album=4 |
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
Tartan Jack
Posts: 307
Location: South Caroina
Joined: 30.11.06
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| Posted on 23-08-2008 00:39 |
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I also have difficulty in contrasting how good many of Schumacher's films have been, just look at "Time to Kill," which was made RIGHT BETWEEN Batman Begins and Batman and Robin
His entry (inc. filmography) on IMDb:
http://www.imdb.c...m0001708/
Some of his films have been amazing:
St. Elmo's Fire
The Lost Boys
Flatliners
Dying Young
Falling Down
The Client
A Time to Kill
8MM
Phone Booth
Among others I haven't seen
YET, Batman and Robin is AWFUL!
Batman Forever is better, but not much (visually). At least, it is WATCHABLE . . .
He decided that a "comic book movie" must be bright and over the top.
He also seems to have confused duality with sexual duality . . .
I just have a hard time looking at Schumacher's filmography and realizing that the SAME director that made all those films, which are MUCH MORE like "The Dark Knight" than any of the first 4 or other "comic book films," is the guy that brought us Batman and Robin!
Oh, and Nolan is interesting. It is fairly early in his career to crown him as a "great director," but he has the makings of one and the boldness in his choice of material to REALLY stand-out long term in the industry.
Burton is one of my favorite creative personalities in film. I say that because he is more than a typical director, in that he SHAPES the entire project, more like an art director, director, and producer in one. It is kinda true that many of his films could exist in a sort of Burtonverse, but most have great depth to them BEYOND the artistic expression or complexity of script.
Burton's IMDb page:
http://www.imdb.c...m0000318/
I love many of the films on there! Most have a level of meaning that gets me, even if it isn't as blatantly on the surface as most films.
His are kinda "art films" that tell real stories and carry a deep meaning. Many are dark in style, but have an "uplifting" backbone to it.
To be honest, there ISN'T a Burton film I don't like . . .
As for his take on Batman . . .
It is CRUCIAL for how Batman was popularly seen and a major public reimaging/rebranding of the character and mythos, into what the comics had been for over a decade previously.
Without Burton's stylized "gritty and dirty" Batman, Nolan's vision would NOT have been made or accepted by the "public-at-large" or possibly the studio.
I'd go so far as to say that something like "The Dark Knight" is probably more like what Burton had in mind when he "handed over the reigns" to Schumacher. But, Schumacher lost track of everything, emphasized what should have been moved away from, and made crap.
As for my "personal favorites" . . .
I'd but Burton and Nolan as rough equals with their second films tied for first and second among my favorite live action Batman films. There respective first films are tied for third/fourth.
Then the 1966 Adam West film in 5th
The Serials 1949 as 6th, then 1943 in 7th
Batman Forever as a close 8th
(5th is a car length ahead, while 6/7 are in a close 2-wide with 8 right on their bumper)
Several laps down and WAY behind is Batman and Robin . . .
Best watched with the 1989 sound track playing in the background and the film on mute, color set to graytones.
(Can you tell I am a NASCAR fan . . . )
Schumacher COULD have made a REALLY good Batman film . . .
He made trash, probably the worst 2 films of his entire career!
Sum Nox!
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
Buckeye Bat
Posts: 442
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Joined: 15.08.09
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| Posted on 27-09-2009 16:34 |
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I would rate the directors this way:
1) Christopher Nolan because I thought both movies had the dark feeling that most fans love.
2) Tim Burton because he did for the movie version of Batman what Frank Miller did for the comics version-brought Batman back from Campy Hell
3) Joel Doz...Schumacher (yes I almost called him Dozier) because he took Burton's dark charalcter and like Dozier added camp and neon to the movies
'It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me-BATMAN (Batman Begins) |
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RE: Burton, Schumacher or Nolan?... |
JokesOnYou771
Posts: 8
Location: The dark, concrete caverns of Hawaii
Joined: 13.11.08
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| Posted on 26-07-2010 20:58 |
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Quite an interesting question. On the whole, I'd have to say Christopher Nolan is the best of the three (as well as my personal favorite) -- of the 7 feature films he's directed so far, I don't think he's made a bad one yet. (Still need to see Inception, but based on the buzz from critics and my friends who've seen it, I'm pretty certain I'll like it.) I think it's also great that he's helped to write all the films he's directed; it shows that he's not "only" good at working with actors and controlling the technical side, but he can also come up with the stories to begin with.
That said, I do enjoy a lot of Tim Burton's films. A lot of the critics say the style for all his movies tends to be too similar and that he keeps picking the same actors and crew, and that's a fair point... but most of his films have worked for me. (The only one I really disliked was his Planet of the Apes, but then again, I wasn't that fond of the original either.) It's all a matter of personal taste, of course.
Joel Schumacher... I've enjoyed a few of his films (Lost Boys, Tigerland, Phone Booth, and A Time To Kill), but his Batman movies as well as certain others like Phantom of the Opera (a disgrace to the stage musical) and The Number 23 were just bad.
So yeah, my list would probably run as follows:
1) Nolan
2) Burton
3) Schumacher
Which is pretty much the same as I'd rank their respective Batman films.
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SLAUGHTER is the best medicine. |
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