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Batman YTB - Fansite For Batman Comics, Toys, Figures, News and more! | GOTHAM THEATER | Batman Begins, Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises

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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 18-01-2010 13:07
User Avatar Buckeye Bat
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How about this Penguin and Black Mask vying to control Gotham's Underworld....Black Mask is as bad as they come and comes out full force killing Gotham's mobsters (i.e. like Capone in Chicago in the 30s)...Penguin's real name is Oswald Cobblepot and and 'Honest and Upstanding' businessman and member of the community (all the while trying to gain control of Gotham's Mobs)....Local newspapers and media outlets begin getting letters from an E. Nygma about the 'The real Oswald Cobblepot' who he knew when the two of them were younger and working for a mobster in another state.
While the GCPD go after Cobblepot, Gordon secretly asks Batman to go after Black Mask and see about this E. Nygma person.
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 18-01-2010 13:55
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It's an interesting story, but I think it would be a mistake if Batman wasn't involved in the plot. We don't want another Burton/Schumacher franchise where the plots revolve around the villains.

I think Riddler needs to target Batman specifically. Send some taunting threats and try to surmise his identity.


Never start with the head; the victim gets all fuzzy!

R.I.P. Heath
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 18-01-2010 15:53
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Eh.... I think it would be better if he just sent the letters to be published in the newspaper by his other personality, Edward Nashton which he doesn't know exists. He would send the letters once a week, published on Fridays. In the last letter he threatens Edward Nashton's life unless Batman doesn't reveal his identity and turn himself in. Here's a line for Riddler/mysterious writer: "There aren't guidelines, so I'll make the guidelines..."


"Things are always going to get worst before they get better."

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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 18-01-2010 16:51
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The only problem with any Riddler knowing or finding out about Batman's identity comes right from Schumacher's schlockfest BATMAN FOREVER
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 18-01-2010 17:14
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The Red-Blue Blur wrote:
Eh.... I think it would be better if he just sent the letters to be published in the newspaper by his other personality, Edward Nashton which he doesn't know exists. He would send the letters once a week, published on Fridays. In the last letter he threatens Edward Nashton's life unless Batman doesn't reveal his identity and turn himself in. Here's a line for Riddler/mysterious writer: "There aren't guidelines, so I'll make the guidelines..."


The Riddler doesn't have spilt personalities. That's like making Bane a gorilla, or Catwoman literally having 9 lives.

Crazy does not always equal interesting.

Also, Joker already did the "I'm going to kill someone if you don't reveal your identity and turn yourself in" thing.


Never start with the head; the victim gets all fuzzy!

R.I.P. Heath
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 18-01-2010 18:21
User Avatar The Red-Blue Blur
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Razhwurz wrote:
The Red-Blue Blur wrote:
Eh.... I think it would be better if he just sent the letters to be published in the newspaper by his other personality, Edward Nashton which he doesn't know exists. He would send the letters once a week, published on Fridays. In the last letter he threatens Edward Nashton's life unless Batman doesn't reveal his identity and turn himself in. Here's a line for Riddler/mysterious writer: "There aren't guidelines, so I'll make the guidelines..."


The Riddler doesn't have spilt personalities. That's like making Bane a gorilla, or Catwoman literally having 9 lives.

Crazy does not always equal interesting.

Also, Joker already did the "I'm going to kill someone if you don't reveal your identity and turn yourself in" thing.


For Riddler as a reboot though... It seems like a Nolan-isc way to do it to me. And it adds a serious origin story.... Btw, it's not anything like Catwoman having 9 lives, that's just a stupid unrealistic idea Burton had....

And yeah, it's like what Joker did, how about Riddler just be trying to "finish the job?"


"Things are always going to get worst before they get better."

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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 18-01-2010 23:37
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The Red-Blue Blur wrote:
For Riddler as a reboot though... It seems like a Nolan-isc way to do it to me. And it adds a serious origin story.... Btw, it's not anything like Catwoman having 9 lives, that's just a stupid unrealistic idea Burton had....

And yeah, it's like what Joker did, how about Riddler just be trying to "finish the job?"


Nolan is VERY loyal to the comic books. He may take away sci-fi elements like Joker's skin or Ra's' literal immortality, but all the characters are very much the characters of the comics. If Nolan were going to give Riddler split-personalities, then Joker would be a senile, 80 year old woman and Ra's supervillain name would be Tapioca-Man.


Never start with the head; the victim gets all fuzzy!

R.I.P. Heath
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 10:05
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With the Riddler character, there are 2 main characterizations:
The Frank Gorshin-based spastic one, derived from the 1960s TV show.
The one created by Paul Dini for BTAS.


As Dini's one is what he wrote in the 1990s and 2000s for the main comics, that is what most people think of for the "comics" version today.

The problem with the Riddler character is that it is incredibly hard to write for. Dini even said that most Riddler ideas wound up in the trash, as they just didn't work. The problem is that he either ends up as a Joker-Light OR overly complicated and the writers need to explain everything for it to make sense. Yet, Dini LOVED the character, esp. his own version of it. So, he pounded out a good number of REALLY good stories, even making the character its own unique place in the continuity. Dini could make the Riddler work, and work well, but it even took him a lot of effort, more than any other character.
Now, that gets to other writers . . .
Many just can't do Riddler stories that really work with the Riddler alone. So, he ends up as a foil for another character who is the main one in the story (like in the Catwoman series "When In Rome"wink.
To me, Dini is about the only writer that can make REALLY good Riddler stories wherein the character stands alone and is a serious threat for Batman. The others I have read fall far short of that.

[excursus]
That is also why I see The Riddler as one of the most overrated villains in the Batman grouping- Penguin is the same. They are high-profile recognized villains that far more bad stories about them have been written than good ones. Yet, a well thought out and presented story featuring one of these characters makes a REALLY good story. The issue is writers make a "Riddler" or "Penguin" story with only a partial idea of what makes the character work so well and creates a story that doesn't work and seems contribed. Yet, that said, in the Dini/Timm series, some of my favorite episodes are Penguin and Roddler ones. The characterization in that series (most of the time) REALLY worked well.
Since then, the writing for those 2 characters has notably improved and good stories have appeared. The version on the Penguin in The Batman actually is quite good (with the Riddler version leaving something to be desired). Yet, there are some that are still just awful.
Now, Erin's vision of Penguin works, and works REALLY well. I'd like to see a writer on the comics take a look at her work for inspiration.
[end excursus]

Now, IF the Nolans could get Dini to work with the script writers to make a good Riddler story, the character could work out GREAT! Otherwise, there are just way too many potential problems trying to make the character work.


My point:
The Riddler just might make a good character in Batman 3, BUT it will all depend on the writers and what they do to make it work and work well.
I'd be surprised to see that one, esp. how it is often done as "Joker Light" and may easily come off as a Joker imitator. -You know . . . THAT could work too, but as a secondary character, not a major villain in the film.


Sum Nox!
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 12:07
User Avatar Erin Cobblepot
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Tartan Jack Wrote:

Now, Erin's vision of Penguin works, and works REALLY well. I'd like to see a writer on the comics take a look at her work for inspiration.


@Tartan Jack:-

I feel HONORED that you think my vision of the Penguin works REALLY well. I just don't know...what to say...LOL!! Thank you. I feel so good about myself knowing I can make that much of a impression.

You are too kind my good friend yes




Hello Gotham. I'm Erin. Ozzy Cobblepot's Biggest Fan. Love you Pengy!

Betcha never, betcha never, betcha never thought we'd get this far.
Betcha never, never ever, betcha never thought you'd touch my heart.
Betcha never, betcha never, betcha never thought I'd surrender.
Betcha never thought you'd ever get with me.
I betcha never thought of that.

Edited by Erin Cobblepot on 19-01-2010 12:09
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 12:20
User Avatar Buckeye Bat
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As you said Tartan, the Riddler isn't top shelf in the villain aisle sooo how about having him in with Penguin and at the same time giving information to GCPD about the Penguin real 'activities' (Oswald tries to come off as a legitimate businessman) using his ever present riddles by doing this he runs Penguin out of town and takes over Penguin's businesses...The key to the Riddler is him knowing something and using his riddles to reveal what he knows to others
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 14:27
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But him trying to reveal the Penguin's true motives and acticities puts him more on the level of anti-villian. IMO he needs to be in direct opposistion with Batman for this to really show the Riddler as he were in the comics.


Cody
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 14:27
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But him trying to reveal the Penguin's true motives and acticities puts him more on the level of anti-villian. IMO he needs to be in direct opposistion with Batman for this to really show the Riddler as he were in the comics.


Cody
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 14:27
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But him trying to reveal the Penguin's true motives and acticities puts him more on the level of anti-villian. IMO he needs to be in direct opposistion with Batman for this to really show the Riddler as he were in the comics.


Cody
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 14:27
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But him trying to reveal the Penguin's true motives and acticities puts him more on the level of anti-villian. IMO he needs to be in direct opposistion with Batman for this to really show the Riddler as he were in the comics.


Cody
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 14:27
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But him trying to reveal the Penguin's true motives and acticities puts him more on the level of anti-villian. IMO he needs to be in direct opposistion with Batman for this to really show the Riddler as he were in the comics.


Cody
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 15:39
User Avatar Razhwurz
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Tartan Jack wrote:
With the Riddler character, there are 2 main characterizations:
The Frank Gorshin-based spastic one, derived from the 1960s TV show.
The one created by Paul Dini for BTAS.


As Dini's one is what he wrote in the 1990s and 2000s for the main comics, that is what most people think of for the "comics" version today.

The problem with the Riddler character is that it is incredibly hard to write for. Dini even said that most Riddler ideas wound up in the trash, as they just didn't work. The problem is that he either ends up as a Joker-Light OR overly complicated and the writers need to explain everything for it to make sense. Yet, Dini LOVED the character, esp. his own version of it. So, he pounded out a good number of REALLY good stories, even making the character its own unique place in the continuity. Dini could make the Riddler work, and work well, but it even took him a lot of effort, more than any other character.
Now, that gets to other writers . . .
Many just can't do Riddler stories that really work with the Riddler alone. So, he ends up as a foil for another character who is the main one in the story (like in the Catwoman series "When In Rome"wink.
To me, Dini is about the only writer that can make REALLY good Riddler stories wherein the character stands alone and is a serious threat for Batman. The others I have read fall far short of that.

[excursus]
That is also why I see The Riddler as one of the most overrated villains in the Batman grouping- Penguin is the same. They are high-profile recognized villains that far more bad stories about them have been written than good ones. Yet, a well thought out and presented story featuring one of these characters makes a REALLY good story. The issue is writers make a "Riddler" or "Penguin" story with only a partial idea of what makes the character work so well and creates a story that doesn't work and seems contribed. Yet, that said, in the Dini/Timm series, some of my favorite episodes are Penguin and Roddler ones. The characterization in that series (most of the time) REALLY worked well.
Since then, the writing for those 2 characters has notably improved and good stories have appeared. The version on the Penguin in The Batman actually is quite good (with the Riddler version leaving something to be desired). Yet, there are some that are still just awful.
Now, Erin's vision of Penguin works, and works REALLY well. I'd like to see a writer on the comics take a look at her work for inspiration.
[end excursus]

Now, IF the Nolans could get Dini to work with the script writers to make a good Riddler story, the character could work out GREAT! Otherwise, there are just way too many potential problems trying to make the character work.


My point:
The Riddler just might make a good character in Batman 3, BUT it will all depend on the writers and what they do to make it work and work well.
I'd be surprised to see that one, esp. how it is often done as "Joker Light" and may easily come off as a Joker imitator. -You know . . . THAT could work too, but as a secondary character, not a major villain in the film.


I don't think they NEED to bring Dini into it. The thing to remember is that you basically need a good crime thriller writer to write a good Riddler story because of all the twists and turns in the plot. Christopher Nolan is a VERY good crime thriller writer. He could do a suave, intelligent Riddler and make it VERY good.

Watch The Prestige, Memento and Insomnia, then look me in the eye and tell me Nolan needs help with mysteries.


Never start with the head; the victim gets all fuzzy!

R.I.P. Heath
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 18:18
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Sorry about all the same posts guys my comp is a P.O.S.


Cody
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 19:04
User Avatar The Red-Blue Blur
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I really think my idea is movie material, I don't know why you don't like it...


"Things are always going to get worst before they get better."

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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 19:20
User Avatar Razhwurz
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The Red-Blue Blur wrote:
I really think my idea is movie material, I don't know why you don't like it...


"Movie material" isn't all you need in this industry, you need to be loyal to the source material. If it were a new character, it would be a cool story. But Riddler? He has never had any personality disorder of any kind. In fact, of all of Batman's villains, Riddler is probably the one with the strongest sense of self-identity.

The exact reason Tim Burton's movie's failed was because instead of adapting the characters from the comics he'd just make a new character and give it an old character's name. Burton's Catwoman is nothing like the Catwoman from the comics. And your Riddler is nothing like the Riddler from the comics Do you see what I'm saying?


Never start with the head; the victim gets all fuzzy!

R.I.P. Heath
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RE: Batman Begins 3 Rumors and Ideas - Posted on 19-01-2010 19:23
User Avatar The Red-Blue Blur
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Exactly!! I totally agree with you about Burton's stuff, he just gave them the names... I was thinking that as I watched the first film. But remember, this IS a reboot. The Nolan Joker is pretty far off from the original version... And to change him and get enormous amounts of good feedback when he's not the same at all, that's what I would try to aim for with Riddler...


"Things are always going to get worst before they get better."

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