Bookmark and Share
 
 
Navigation
 
  Home
Main Menu
Action Figures & Dolls
 
Login
 
 
User Name

Password



Not a member yet?
Click here to register.

Forgotten your password?
Request a new one here.
 
View Thread
Batman YTB - Fansite For Batman Comics, Toys, Figures, News and more! | GOTHAM THEATER | Past Batman Movies

Print Thread Rate Thread Change to old view


Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 03-12-2005 15:43
User Avatar Gothamite
Blue Collared Worker

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 476
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 29.07.05

INTRODUCTION


First of all, I would like to say that when this movie first came out, I was five, and I thought it was pure perfection. I loved Kilmer's Batman, and Robin was so cool.
Second of all, I would like to say, that I read a theory by Caleson long ago. He said that when Forever first came out, everyone loved it and really appreciated Schumacher's new approach to the Dark Knight, and it wasn't until the sick twisted 'comedy' of Batman & Robin that anyone actually bothered to complain about Forever. The goal of this thread is to open people's minds to what I believe was a good film, but was flawed, just like the Batman films before it.

By the way, I am referring to this film as though the deleted scenes are part of the story so keep that in mind.

PROS:


BATMAN DOESN'T KILL:

First of all, I would like to say that Batman killed mercilessly in both Batman (he machine guns several henchmen from the batmobile, and blows another few up) and Batman Returns (he straps a bomb to a goon). To me, this is just as bad as watching Gotham descend into a weird urban carnival of neon lights and day-glo makeup.

BATMAN'S ORIGIN IS EXPLORED:

And it's not just the Joker killing his folks. In this film, we see young Bruce confronting his destiny in the form of a bat, flying toward him from the distance. We also see him worry over a repressed memory - a red leather book where he remembers reading that it was his idea to go to the movies (and therefore his fault that his parents got killed). At the end of the movie (well in the deleted scenes,) Bruce finds this leather book (Val's acting is positively terrific here) and discovers that it was actually his parents' idea and that he had originally wanted to go to a cartoon that was on earlier in the day. It is here that Bruce discovers that Batman stands for justice and not revenge (a very vital story point in Batman Begins) and that Batman is 'Forever'.

BRUCE WAYNE IS IN THIS FILM

Michael Keaton was a great Batman and the Bruce he played was great too, but neither were very recognisable from their comic book counterparts. Keaton's Batman didn't speak much and therefore wasn't really able to extend himself to his fullest. and his Bruce Wayne was more of a Clark Kent in the sense that he was awkward and insecure and only felt normal when he was in the suit.
Val Kilmer plays Bruce as the suave, sexy playboy that the media constantly followed. Although he doesn't quite play the pompous 'disguise' Bruce that was played incomparably by Christian Bale, his Bruce was the best up until that point IMO.

THE BEST LOVE-INTEREST TO DATE

Nicole Kidman is without a doubt the best Batman love interest ever. Basinger screamed too much, Catwoman was too weird, and Katie Holmes was a bit too in-your-face. Chase Meridian (despite her perfect hair, body, and looks) was IMO the closest the screen Batman will ever get to meeting his soulmate. Chase was perfect in every way and Bruce really seemed like he loved her. She was the only love interest to truly accept both identities and the sexual tension between the two characters was great.

THE ONLY WAY TO HAVE ROBIN


In my opinion, people on these boards aren't realistic enough when talking about the prospect of Robin in a film. He can't be twelve years old. That concept is too strange and creepy for today's world and also, the concept of a twelve year old engaging grown men in combat is just silly.
Also, the Dick Grayson of the comics is just Superboy without any powers. He doesn't have any particular strengths or weaknesses until he becomes Nightwing and that's all based on history between him and Batman and Oracle.
IMO, the Jason Todd character has to be used in a film, in order for the two characters to learn from each other more effectively. Batman needs to argue with Dick about being Robin, he needs to quell his thirst for revenge, and he needs to teach the lad the true meaning of justice. In Forever, Robin was given the realistic treatment. He was guy seemingly in his late teens, who was confused and angry, just as Bruce had been. I think Chris O' Donnell did a great job as Robin in this film and the suit was great in both films.


CONS


THE PUNS

The loveable one-liners added in by that bastion of wit, Akiva Goldsman. Including but not by any means limited to

"Are you trying to get under my cape, doctor?"

"It's the car right? Chicks dig the car."

"The ground, it's full of holes you know? Holey."

THE NEON
Probably the most infamous of Schumacher's screw ups was the 'inspired' production design which made Gotham City look like a weird ongoing urban carnival. Batman is meant to be realistic, that's why it didn't really make any sense for me when Schumacher kept going on about how "it's a comic book, you can throw logic right out the window.". Batman is the most logical, and believable character in comics and Two-Face and the Riddler are two of his most believable villains. There's no reason under the sun as to why Schumacher had to take this approach to his films. Just because Bond has elements of the fantastic in his films, doesn't mean that there's massive statues of men holding up observatories.

THE HOMOEROTICISM
In case anyone didn't know, Joel Schumacher is as gay as they come. I have absolutely no problem with that, but that doesn't mean I want to look at Val Kilmer's ass. I also don't want to look at nipples on the batsuit and I would prefer if Two-Face and the Riddler kept their hands to themselves instead of on the other.

THE GIANT BAT

Nowhere in the script did it say that the bat had to be that big. That scene had the potential to be the best scene in any Batman film up to Batman Begins. When I was watching this scene first, I thought Kilmer's acting was absolutely excellent when he's looking at the red leather book, and it's really cool and dramatic when he sees the bat in the distance. But then, Schumacher had to go and wreck it by having the Bat fly right up to him and hover in front of him for no reason other than to reveal itself as being ridiculously fake and stupidly big.

and finally...

THE VILLAINS


I don't think I'm the only one who didn't enjoy Tommy Lee Jones as the Joker. This is a continuity error. The Joker died in the first Batman movie, so there was no reason that he could be in this film. Also, Jones doesn't even do a very good job at playing the Joker. I think I remember hearing somewhere that Jones was originally cast as Two-Face. I don't know why they didn't have him play him.

And maybe it's just me, but I don't really care for Jim Carrey prancing around the batcave acting like a silly little kid and throwing bombs shaped like birds everywhere. The Riddler can be a really subtle, suave villain, like in BTAS or even a slightly scary, unsettling creepy villain like in the Adam West show. Carrey's Riddler is just too wiry and acts like he's on drugs. I know a lot of people like Carrey's Riddler. Long story short: I didn't.

IN CONCLUSION:

Batman Forever got many things right that the Burton films got wrong. And for that I respect it as a Batman film. In order to truly enjoy this film, you must watch the deleted scenes and block Batman & Robin from your memory completely (it's hard, but it works). We must also remember that WB hadn't set out to make this Batman movie a dark, revolutionary drama about a man's battle against his own demons as well as a corrupt system that would please hardened Batman fan. This was meant to be a fun, popcorn movie for kids, teenagers, adults and even older fans of Batman. It definitely appealed to all of those audiences if not the average Batman fan.

Please post any opinions you might have about my view on this controversial entry in the Batman franchise. Smile


In the shadows I saw my destiny...
I would seek justice...
I would have my revenge...
Edited by Gothamite on 03-12-2005 15:51
gothamite27@hotmail.com Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 03-12-2005 16:12
User Avatar Phil
Vigilante

Awards:
Medal 
Member

Posts: 2061
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 30.07.05

i liked batman forever. its not joel shumacher that i dont like, its just batman & robin. but even b&r wasnt ALL that bad. it made my childhood funner, lol. it might suck to me now, but i loved it at the time.

i never knew joel was gay...lol. but in the interview stuff on the special features, he sed that the nipples were places to resemble statues of perfect ppl because comic characters had perfect bodies or something like that.


http://batmanytb.com/pictures/thumbnails.php?album=4
Ph1L Cho Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 03-12-2005 16:29
User Avatar elvis
Arkham Inmate

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 65
Location: Greece
Joined: 04.08.05

i agree with you Gothamite!!!


Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 03-12-2005 19:43
User Avatar Planet-man
Arkham Inmate

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 144
Location: Toronto
Joined: 03.08.05

I pretty much agree with you Gothamite. However, I like Basinger just as much if not more than Kidman, and I also enjoyed the "Holy Rusted Metal" line, as a clever little nod.

Jim Carrey wasn't that bad, especially since he was known at that time as being Hollywood's Plastic-man-on-speed.

All-in-all, Batman Forever was probably my favourite movie(along with The Mask) when I saw it at 5 or 6 and Jim Carrey was easily my favourite actor. I've gone from loving it, to disliking it when I really started to understand Batman, to liking it again now.

Here's how I'd rate them:

Batman - 9.5/10
Batman Returns - 7.5/10
Batman Forever - 8/10
Batman & Robin - 4/10
Batman Begins - 9.5/10


Marge: Homer, I've got someone here who can help!
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, a scientist!
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's not BATMAN!!
Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 04-12-2005 05:51
User Avatar Gothamite
Blue Collared Worker

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 476
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 29.07.05

I wouldn't give Batman 89 the same rating as Begins, but other than that I agree with you.


In the shadows I saw my destiny...
I would seek justice...
I would have my revenge...
gothamite27@hotmail.com Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 04-12-2005 08:49
User Avatar Phil
Vigilante

Awards:
Medal 
Member

Posts: 2061
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 30.07.05

whats the .5 that batman 89 or batman begins had wrong? lol, jk. but those ratings look accurate to me. cuz i liked batman 89 as much as begins, forever second, returns third, and b&r last.


http://batmanytb.com/pictures/thumbnails.php?album=4
Ph1L Cho Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 04-12-2005 09:16
User Avatar Gothamite
Blue Collared Worker

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 476
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 29.07.05

No I would rate them like this:

Batman Begins : 9.5

Batman 1989 : 8.0

Batman Forever : 7.5

Batman Returns: 7.0

Batman & Robin: 2.5

Anyway, let's get back on topic!


In the shadows I saw my destiny...
I would seek justice...
I would have my revenge...
gothamite27@hotmail.com Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 04-12-2005 12:03
User Avatar Planet-man
Arkham Inmate

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 144
Location: Toronto
Joined: 03.08.05

I'm still really looking forward to seeing the BF director's cut. I'm asking for the anthology for Christmas.


Marge: Homer, I've got someone here who can help!
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, a scientist!
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's not BATMAN!!
Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 04-12-2005 12:45
User Avatar Gothamite
Blue Collared Worker

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 476
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 29.07.05

It's really worth getting! The deleted scene where Bruce finds the red leather book is absolutely mindblowing.


In the shadows I saw my destiny...
I would seek justice...
I would have my revenge...
gothamite27@hotmail.com Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 04-12-2005 16:38
User Avatar Planet-man
Arkham Inmate

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 144
Location: Toronto
Joined: 03.08.05

Can't wait. I'm also looking forward to finally seeing the deleted scenes from Batman.


Marge: Homer, I've got someone here who can help!
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, a scientist!
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's not BATMAN!!
Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 04-12-2005 17:33
User Avatar Phil
Vigilante

Awards:
Medal 
Member

Posts: 2061
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 30.07.05

there is none. just for batman forever and batman & robin. but there was a robin story board with voice acting in batman 89 though. it was pretty cool. i wud have liked it if it was in the movie, but who knows what other ppl wud think.


http://batmanytb.com/pictures/thumbnails.php?album=4
Ph1L Cho Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 05-12-2005 13:09
User Avatar Gothamite
Blue Collared Worker

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 476
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 29.07.05

No there is one deleted scene in Batman 1989, but you can't access it directly. I remember seeing the infamous 'Is it Halloween?' deleted scene on one of the documentaries, so if you browse through them all, you'll find it.


In the shadows I saw my destiny...
I would seek justice...
I would have my revenge...
gothamite27@hotmail.com Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 05-12-2005 15:24
User Avatar Phil
Vigilante

Awards:
Medal 
Member

Posts: 2061
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 30.07.05

oh really?...i never knew, lol.


http://batmanytb.com/pictures/thumbnails.php?album=4
Ph1L Cho Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 05-12-2005 18:11
User Avatar Planet-man
Arkham Inmate

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 144
Location: Toronto
Joined: 03.08.05

The 'Is it Hallowe'en?' is the one I'm thinking of. Glad to hear it's in the documentary at least.


Marge: Homer, I've got someone here who can help!
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, a scientist!
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's not BATMAN!!
Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 05-12-2005 18:22
User Avatar elvis
Arkham Inmate

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 65
Location: Greece
Joined: 04.08.05

is it a deleated scene?!?!?!i thought it was some kind of comercial!!!?!?!


Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 06-12-2005 12:33
User Avatar Caleson
Dark Knight

Awards:
None
Webmaster

Posts: 1631
Location: Rockville, IA
Joined: 24.06.05

Hm. I agree, in terms of comic book accuracy Batman Forever did set some things straight that Burton didn't. But at the same time he made the films not so straight, if you get my meaning. I was about 8 when I saw Forever, the first Batman film I saw in theatres (I'm guessing my mom thought Returns was too dark for a 5 year old). I thought it was great too, got all the action figures and merchandise. And being that young, it felt like it took "forever" for them to make another film after Returns. So the Batfilm revival was just really refreshing, although I wondered why Catwoman didn't get her own film.

I have a hard time watching Forever now, but I can still partially get into the mood I remember from watching it as a kid, which certain scenes. I just have to really ignore the goofy acting and illogical aspects of it all. It has a rellevant place as a Batman film, but for my taste, I just prefer Burton's more gothic films, that darkened mood and atmosphere. And I realize that they too weren't perfect. Some people can get by the goofiness in Forever better than I can, which is good for them. The film has something to offer in a different way than the previous ones. I still have yet to get the Anthology (Christmas I hope), but I can't wait to see the Deleted Scenes. The film already had some good, serious scenes and hopefully the additional ones will help change my perspective even more.


Caleson CALES0N http://calescustoms.batmanytb.com Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 06-12-2005 21:58
User Avatar FlaBat
Dark Knight

Awards:
Medal 
Webmaster

Posts: 1526
Location: Miami
Joined: 24.06.05

Pros:

It was a Batman film
Jim Carrey
Tommy Lee Jones

Cons:

Everything else.

I like both Carrey and Jones but Kilmer and O Donnell were both mediocre. The script was campy and sometimes just stupid. It did not have to be as dark and gothic as Burton?s films, but it did not have to be a bright and cartooney as it was.


Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 07-12-2005 17:08
User Avatar Gothamite
Blue Collared Worker

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 476
Location: Gotham City
Joined: 29.07.05

FlaBat wrote:
I like both Carrey and Jones but Kilmer and O Donnell were both mediocre. The script was campy and sometimes just stupid.


I simply don't agree with that at all. Kilmer played Batman and Bruce almost as well as Bale did and Chris O' Donnell made Robin a cool, sophisticated character, rather than that whining idiot without pants from the TV show. Whatever about Jim Carrey's unappealing plasticity, Tommy Lee Jones was just awful as Two-Face. I simply cannot believe that I was actually scared of him as a child. Clearly he didn't get that not all Batman villains have to be cackling fools.


In the shadows I saw my destiny...
I would seek justice...
I would have my revenge...
gothamite27@hotmail.com Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 07-12-2005 18:07
User Avatar Planet-man
Arkham Inmate

Awards:
None
Member

Posts: 144
Location: Toronto
Joined: 03.08.05

It's not Jones' fault, Schumacher probably directed him that way. I think in a darker Batman flick he could've done a lot better. And the fact that you, me, and a lot of other people thought he was great when we were kids is because we were supposed to. In a ton of ways, it was a very kid-friendly Batman flick, much more than the first two.


Marge: Homer, I've got someone here who can help!
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, a scientist!
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's not BATMAN!!
Send Private Message
RE: BATMAN FOREVER: Pros and Cons - Posted on 07-12-2005 18:30
User Avatar Caleson
Dark Knight

Awards:
None
Webmaster

Posts: 1631
Location: Rockville, IA
Joined: 24.06.05

Yeah, I was a little surprised to see FlaBat say Carrey and Jones were the Pros of the film. They hammed it up big-time. I do think Jones could play a good Two-Face, given the writing and directing was way more serious. He can definitely play serious, raw characters, but the villians this time around were just so bonkers.

Kilmer did fine job as a swave, aristocratic Bruce Wayne. The approach expressed that more than in Burton's version. Kilmer's Batman on the other hand, I'm not big on. Probably because it didn't seem near as threatening, phantomesque and cold as Keaton's, and came off more as dull. And if I ever hear Batman use the word "chick" again I don't know what the hell I'll end up doing...

O'Donnel's Robin wasn't too terrible, given the circumstances. He's much older, so things were bound to be different. I think it's just hard to make a straight comparison between him and his comic book counterpart because of this. I will say though that Burt Ward wasn't really "whiny", and it's probably not quite right to compare West & Ward with the modern films anyway.

Something funny to look for: Pay attention when Bruce says to Chase "Tell me, Doctor. Have you ever been to the circus?" I think he has a bit of a lisp when he says "thircuth". Pretty funny. :rol:


Caleson CALES0N http://calescustoms.batmanytb.com Send Private Message
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Jump to Forum:
Ratings
Rating is available to Members only.

Please login or register to vote.

No Ratings have been Posted.
 

About BatmanYTB | Credits & Thanks!

BATMAN: Yesterday, Today, & Beyond, all of it's sub-sites, or hosted sites are in no way associated, or affiliated with DC Comics, Time Warner or any of it's divisions.

Items cataloged in merchandise sections are not for sale. The downloading of video game ROMs is for backup and testing purposes only. If you do not own the actual game, the ROM is to be deleted from your hard drive within 24 hours.

Any money that may be made from Amazon Associates, advertisements, or affiliate programs will be contributed to the maintaining of this website, to provide the fans with the best that we can offer.