| BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 10-03-2006 14:10 |
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Gothamite
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Can't believe people haven't noticed this already, but is it only me, or do WB have a massive problem in creating plots for the sequels to BB and SR? Both are very much themed films. Batman Begins and Superman Returns. They speak for themselves. It just struck me the other day, that there's a good chance that the sequels will just revert back to hero-fights-villain-hero-loses-hero-fights-villain-hero-wins formula that caused so many superhero films to flop.
Also, everyone's getting excited about a World's Finest film. I really don't think it's going to happen. Want to know why?
Realism versus fantasy.
In Batman Begins, we're supposed to BELIEVE that all or most of this stuff could actually happen if a) a kid was rich and angry enough, and b) if a city was corrupt enough.
In any Superman story, we're supposed to not only believe that a) a man can fly, but also b) a man can dupe his closest friends into believing that he's actually two people...by wearing a pair of glasses.
These two elements clash against each other and in order to make a World's Finest film, you'd either need to drop the realism of BB or lose the fantasy and science fiction of Superman and I wouldn't want to see the lack of either.
In the shadows I saw my destiny...
I would seek justice...
I would have my revenge... |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 10-03-2006 14:43 |
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Chris
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I think your wrong about that. I can't speak for Superman Returns, but with Smallville, they really rty to make it like it is a realistic setting.
I can see the WF movie happen. Someday.
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 10-03-2006 14:59 |
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spencer1984
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I think it's premature to say that there is a problem with the sequels yet. Yes, there's a chance that they will fall back into the old ways, but I think there's a much better chance that they will evolve & grow as did the X-Men and Spider-Man movies.
Speaking of which, both of those movie franchises made some pretty fantastic claims, yet we were still able to believe them (at least for the duration of the movie). I have no problem with Superman & Batman existing in the same movie world. |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 10-03-2006 17:13 |
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Darknight
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Gothamite wrote:It just struck me the other day, that there's a good chance that the sequels will just revert back to hero-fights-villain-hero-loses-hero-fights-villain-hero-wins formula that caused so many superhero films to flop.
Every superhero movie has that formula. That is too fundamental a thing to leave out. Every comic and spin off story follows that plot. That is what makes them heroes they come back after a defeat to beat the bad guys.
X2 for a time was touted as the best superhero movie ever. That is the exact plot that movie. Government guys capture and defeat X-Men, X-Men come back and beat government guys.
The villains may not be that obvious but they are there.
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 10-03-2006 20:50 |
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crisis
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just loook at comics. it can happen. superman/batman is amazing.
What? |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 10-03-2006 20:58 |
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Planet-man
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beyond wrote:
I think your wrong about that. I can't speak for Superman Returns, but with Smallville, they really rty to make it like it is a realistic setting.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!!!!
Oh man that's a good one. You crack me up, beyond.:p
Marge: Homer, I've got someone here who can help!
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, a scientist!
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's not BATMAN!! |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 11-03-2006 04:27 |
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Gothamite
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beyond wrote:
I think you're wrong about that. I can't speak for Superman Returns, but with Smallville, they really try to make it like it is a realistic setting.
Yeah, and in the process, they lose the essence and spirit of Superman. Superman isn't a dark hero. His adventures don't have to be set at night and they don't have to involve drug dealers and revenge-killers.
Not that all the stories are realistic, but do I really want to see Mxyzptlk as a 'sexy European'? No. Do I want vampires to be explained away as being the result of 'a strange condition that bats can pass on to humans'? Nay.
When I'm watching Superman, I want magic, I want robots, aliens, spaceships, monsters, and all in flashy costumes. Superman doesn't need to be realistic. That's not why it's cool.
The opposite is true of Batman, in my opinion. I want Batman to be real. I want to be able to believe that in if a city was so corrupt, and a child's parents were taken away from him, I want to be able to believe that he wouldn't stand around and just let it happen anymore. But Batman fighting aliens is wrong. It doesn't fit.
crisis wrote:
just look at comics. it can happen. superman/batman is amazing.
Superman/Batman is great, but I feel it focuses more on Superman than Batman. The first story arc was based on a giant asteroid from Krypton en route to Earth. The second story arc was based on the new Supergirl. I'm not seeing any Batman stories, so it isn't really that valid a point...yet. Also, Superman/Batman is full-on fantasy. There hasn't been a single realistic story at all.
If a World's Finest movie was made, there's also the problem of screentime and protagonists. There's a good chance that one would get less screentime and focus than the other, causing a division between fans.
In the shadows I saw my destiny...
I would seek justice...
I would have my revenge... |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 11-03-2006 11:57 |
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crisis
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i think that you can make batman unrealistic, but cant make superman realistic. so for that movie, you'd have to make batman unrealistic.
What? |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 11-03-2006 16:47 |
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Gothamite
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crisis wrote:
i think that you can make batman unrealistic, but cant make superman realistic. so for that movie, you'd have to make batman unrealistic.
Yeah, see I can't accept that. Not after the work Nolan has done. If it had been the Burton or the Schumacher movies, they could easily have brought in Superman, but not with Nolan's vision.
In the shadows I saw my destiny...
I would seek justice...
I would have my revenge... |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 11-03-2006 18:15 |
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crisis
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i never meant it had to do with nolans movies!!!
What? |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 13-03-2006 01:40 |
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darkdeco
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Gothamite brings up some good points?
I, for one agree to some aspect.
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Zillions of superheroes fighting space monsters do nothing for me!
I HATE that BATMAN is involved with the JUSTICE LEAGUE / WORLD?S FINEST.
Batman?s appeal is that he doesn?t have super powers.
Once you are willing to accept an implausible notion of ?SUPER? heroes (super powers, super abilities, alien life existing)? The Batman storyline looses all credibility.
Even though Batman?s villains are borderline ridiculous? they are contained within the world of BATMAN.
These characters become obsolete within a JUSTICE LEAGUE setting.
Sure, in the sixties and seventies, the DC universe was so campy; teaming Batman with Superman or with other comic book heroes may have been a good idea? it had entertainment value.
In the eighties, once the Batman character started turning back to its roots and took on a new persona of a more mature, serious, brooding, and realistic entity, ALL previous team-ups should have ceased to exist.
Batman falls into the same category as
The Lone Ranger, Zorro, Tarzan, Robin Hood, Indiana Jones or James Bond.
Although highly implausible? there is some sense of believability.
Where as Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern? and so on, are absolute fantasy;
like Hercules, Dracula, Santa Claus, King Kong, Peter Pan, E.T., Harry Potter and the Big Bad Wolf.
I say enjoy each character for what they are? on their own terms BUT on their own turf.
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 13-03-2006 14:52 |
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Batcroz
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Gothamite gets it and I couldn't agree more. We've been discussing this over in The Batman forum and bringing Superman into that world.
Batman had no place in a world where aliens and superpowers exist. It doesn't make sense. The world wouldn't need a Batman when there's a Superman. Don't get me wrong, I love Superman (the films, the comics, Smallville). But Batman is a totally different animal. Batman exists in the real world. Where a man fights as a vigilante to get revenge for the murder of his parents. Pitting him against galactic villains is absurd and should never take place. There are plenty of stories to be told using the "real" villains of the Batman Universe.
"World's Finest" will never, and should never happen. Sorry fanboys... |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 13-03-2006 22:01 |
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Planet-man
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I whole heartedly disagree.
I can't imagine it working too well as a live-action movie, but my favourite incarnation of Batman EVER is the JLU version. He's surrounded by a thousand superheroes and yet none of them can come close to his intellect, coolness, or problem-solving. Batman is the heart of that show and what makes it work so well, and vice-versa.
Marge: Homer, I've got someone here who can help!
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, a scientist!
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's not BATMAN!! |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 14-03-2006 16:05 |
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Azrael24
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I was watching begins yesturaday and i was just sittin there thinking that lex luthor would fit in perfectly in the movie
and i wouldnt mind seeing the nig blue cheese either |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 14-03-2006 17:40 |
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XforeverXknightX
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Planet-man wrote:
I whole heartedly disagree.
I can't imagine it working too well as a live-action movie, but my favourite incarnation of Batman EVER is the JLU version. He's surrounded by a thousand superheroes and yet none of them can come close to his intellect, coolness, or problem-solving. Batman is the heart of that show and what makes it work so well, and vice-versa.
exactly, thats what makes it so fun to watch is how he compensates for being a mere human in the presence of near gods.
"I went around the world, searched in all the shadows. And there is something out there in the darkness, something terrifying, something that will not stop until it gets revenge... Me"
Check out my fan fics!!!
http://batmanytb.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=35&thread_id=219
http://batmanytb.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=35&thread_id=220
http://www.batmanytb.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=35&thread_id=864 |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 14-03-2006 18:26 |
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Batcroz
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Again, I love the JLU and I love the JLA...but Batman "hanging out" with superpowered characters just makes no sense and totally contradicts what Batman is about.
I also agree that the best part of the show is Batman, but I say that only because I'm a Batman fan.
But if stay to the mythology that is Batman's, he should never be a part of that world. On this issue, you've gotta separate yourself from you think is cool and what actually works. |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 14-03-2006 21:31 |
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TheDarkKnight666
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the reason i think it COULD work is because one of the best things about seeing batman and superman together is how they individually take on enemies. how they do it so differently. how batman compensates for not having powers and hearing about what superman feels about batman. it makes for great stories. and honestly i think you guys take the batman being realistic a bit too far. in theory YES a batman COULD exist mainly because he is a human who uses his mind and martial arts to take on his foes. but then look at his faker aspects, hes mastered over 100 martial arts, he fits objects twize the size of the pouch on his belt perfectly inside his belt, hes got a seamingly ENDLESS amount of tools just flowing right out of his utility belt, one second hes behind you, you look away for half a second and the guys suddenly gone from a long corridor...the best ninja on earth couldnt pull that stunt off, and he some how manages to make a suit thats bulletproof but is as flabby as a pair of pijamas...doesnt make much sense when you think about it. stop making excuses for this list and say they are realistic because they just ARENT. comic books were never made to be realistic anyway. batman may be the MOST realistic hero but that does not mean he is REALISTIC.
Edited by TheDarkKnight666 on 14-03-2006 21:35 |
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 14-03-2006 21:46 |
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FlaBat
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crisis wrote:
i think that you can make batman unrealistic, but cant make superman realistic. so for that movie, you'd have to make batman unrealistic.
"In an insane world the sane man must appear insane"
-Star Trek
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| RE: BB and SR sequel problems -
Posted on 14-03-2006 22:09 |
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FlaBat
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The only sequel problems I see are living up to the first one. Most sequels suck compared to the original. Very few are as good or even better than the original.
Let?s look at history of these two.
Superman The Movie was a brilliant movie that holds up to this day. You believed that a man could fly. Everything about it was fabulous.
Superman II was a true sequel and picked up where the other left off. Superman III was bad and Superman IV Quest For Peace was even worse.
Then there?s our guy.
Batman was dark and edgy and film noir and who didn?t freak when he held that thug out over the roof and said ?I?m Batman!?
Batman Returns got a little darker and stranger. Batman Forever may have been a bigger ?hit?, but it flipped from dark to camp and Batman and Robin all but killed the franchise with way too much camp and not enough wit and dialogue.
They both have their merits they both could work together. I love the give and take in the The Batman Superman Movie. It works and you don?t feel one is getting more screen time. A live action World?s Finest could work, but would you include Robin?
Batman and Superman need writers that understand them. They are not your average superheroes and they deserve the best writers out there. That?s why Batman Begins worked so well, it was written by somebody who knew the character really well.
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